Subject: Omaha 8/b From The Experts From: "Mr Magoo" Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker Date: Thu, Mar 6, 2003 3:26 PM Message-ID: <3e67d90d$0$962$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com> Omaha 8/b is a split pot game (don't laugh, this is Omaha 101). This means the high hand gets half of the pot and the low hand gets half of the pot. Your low must be 87654 or better (straights and flushed do not disqualify you for low hence the name Omaha 8 or better). You get 4 cards in your hand and you MUST use 2 from your hand and 3 from the board to make your best 5 card hand. You can use any 2 cards in your hand to make the low, and any 2 cards in your hand to make the high, so it is possible to utilize all 4 of your cards in one hand. Why am I explaining this? Most players seem to think having 4 cards in their hand allows them to play more hands, when in reality they should play LESS hands. Let me repeat that, in Omaha 8/b YOU SHOULD BE SEEING LESS FLOPS than you do in holdem. Some basic tips: (1) Omaha 8/b is a game of math/pot odds (not pot roast Bruno). If you do not know anything about pot odds, go learn. Read Sklansky's Theory of Poker, find a lesson on this site, ask a fellow student here, I don't care, but go learn. (2) The key to being a winning player at Omaha 8/b is to SCOOP THE WHOLE POT. If you SCOOP once in a while, and rarely get SCOOPED when you play a pot, you will win a ton of money playing this game. (3) The biggest mistake novice Omaha 8/b players make is CHASING FOR HALF THE POT. Do this and your bankroll will never forgive you. Example: You have A234, a very, very good starting hand that many players have a hard time throwing in the muck until it is deader than dead. You raise preflop and 6 people call (welcome to omaha). The flop is 89T. There is a bet and raise before it gets to you. Do you call? Hell no, throw this in the muck. Why? You are chasing for half the pot. If this is a 10-20 game, there is $60 in the pot preflop. With a bet and a raise, there is now $90 in the pot. You can, in all likelihood, only win half of this pot AT BEST. This means you are playing for only $45 of this pot, and you have to put in $20 right now to get that $45, assuming the low gets there. Take into consideration that it will get even more expensive on the turn. Do not let the current size of the pot fool you. Although the pot looks large, you are only getting half of it IF you make your hand. Avoid this situation and avoid chasing for half the pot and your bankroll will thank you. If the flop is 789, yes you have a great chance at hitting the nut low, but it still may be right to fold. You almost certainly can not win the high, which means you lose half of every dollar you subsequently put into the pot. You have $20 invested in the pot. There is now $90 in there, and you can get $45. That means you will win $25 if your low gets there, and for that you must put at least $40 more in the pot (and probably more). That means you are risking $60 dollars minimum to win $25 (not a good gamble). PLUS, you may not be the only A2 out there. Three handed, it is very likely one of the other players also has A2, so if for example a 5 comes on the turn, you might only get a quarter of this pot and end up losing money. Quite honestly, it is not a bad play to muck this terrific starting hand and great low draw right here in this situation. If you have 4 or more players in there on the flop, you should generally see the turn with this hand. (4) You can have what is currently the best hand (the "nuts") and be drawing dead to win any money in the pot. Example: You have AA9T and the board is A56T. You can not win the low, but you have top set for high. You are up against 5 players. Without going into their hands, let's say if a 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, Q, J, or K hits someone makes a str8. Let's also say that one other player has an ace so you can't make quads. Another player has a set of tens so you can't fill with the tens, and all of the fives and sixes are out too. Situations like this do occur, and the set of aces usually caps it on the turn drawing dead. Be aware, just because you have the current best hand does not mean you will win half of the pot. Before you raise, ask yourself, what cards are safe for me? In this example you only like an ace or a ten (you don't know they are out). That is not enough of a safety net to jam this pot. (5) Omaha 8/b is a game of straights and flushes, not 2 pair and trips. Bottom, middle and even top set are not hands to get married to in Omaha 8/b unless you also have redraws. (6) The "nuts" is often out there against you for the high and the low. Having the nuts is not enough, you want to have the nuts and a REDRAW to a better hand. Example: Letās say you have As2s8T. The flop comes 7d9dJh. You have the current nuts. But when you bet you get called by 4 players. What can they have? Sets, 2 pair, 9Q, flush draws? Do you have any safe cards? You have very few, so you must play this hand cautiously. Now if the flop comes 7s9sJh, you can pound on it because you have a REDRAW to the nut flush. Having the nuts and a REDRAW to the nuts is what Omaha is all about, and will lead to many scooped pots. More later, if you are interested. Ok penance starts here. These tips refer to cash game LIMIT play. Tournament play is slightly different. Why raise? Get more money in, thin the field, take control of the betting action, etc. For example, say you are on the button with A34K double suited. Not a great hand, but certainly a quality hand. There are 4 limpers to you. Yes, raise it up. Why? First, it is highly unlikely there are 3 players out there with A2. Charge those playing 23 and A4 a premium preflop. Also, most players will put you on AA2 when you raise, so if the flop come raggedy they will all check to you on the flop and you can get a free card (if you like). This is especially important if the flop comes something like QT5 rainbow. You can take a free card on this flop, as just about every non-pair card in the deck improves your hand. Or, you can bet and try to force out the limping A2 player and take a free card on the expensive street when they all check to you on the turn. When the flop comes something like 256 with two of your suit, someone with A3 will probably bet out (figuring you for A2), as will sets, str8s etc. When this type of flop happens, your hand is disguised and you can raise in position on the button and charge the sets and str8s a premium, as well as putting more dead money into the pot in the event you miss your hi draw and get quartered for low. Now let's say you are UTG with AA23 double suited. Should you raise? No way. You want a lot of players in the pot with this monster, so just limp and hope someone raises behind you so you can 3 bet it preflop. If you end up with 5 limpers behind you, you are in position for the checkraise on the flop. These are only a few tidbits to whet your appetite for learning omaha. KEY CONCEPT The key street to raise in omaha 8/b is the flop. That is where all the value is. You charge the one-way draws and the non-nut draws the maximum. Most players will take a card off on the flop to hit their draw. This is where you must punish the one way hands. If you flop the nut low draw and have some backup (e.g. you have A24x and the flop is 36K), you should be raising with your low draw. In short, you should raise all of your strong hands on the flop almost all of the time. In omaha, the other players will not fold to a raise on the flop. If the flop is 36K, anyone with 45 will call to the river, most players with A4 will see the turn, and of course A2 is not going anywhere. Charge these players a premium, and hope your dream card (the ace) hits the turn. KEY CONCEPT II If you are new to the game of omaha and do not have an ace in your hand, throw the hand away. The power of the ace in omaha 8 can not be undervalued. If you never play a hand that does not have an ace, you will not be far from wrong. Omaha 8/b limit cash game play is a game of the "nuts". Usually the best possible hand is out there. You want to have this hand as well as a reasonable hand the other way if you are showing down on the river. For example, lets say you have A347, a reasonable starting hand. Board is: 247K8. You have nut low and an emergency two pair for hi. Your nut low may be quartered, but if you are heads up or even three handed, there is a good chance your two pair is good for 3/4 of the pot. Getting 3/4 against the other nut low is HUGE in this game. That's all for now. I ripped this post off quickly without a lot of thought, so I hope it is coherent. I play live 20-40 omaha 8/b twice a week. If you have any specific questions post them and I will try to help. _________________ Aiasc If you stink, I'll say you stink. Quote: My question: any suggestions on how play changes in o/8 when the money is very shallow and we are down to the final few tables. Short of picking a hand and keep betting, I am at a lost. I fear I am dumping to many hands postflop if the flop doesn't hit me perfectly. Tournament Omaha hi lo is so very different than cash game hi lo. I know most of the Omaha pundits will probably disagree with me, but you asked, so I will respond. Shallow Money Play First of all, when the money gets shallow you likely will come in for a raise preflop and the hand will usually be contested heads up. The key to heads up Omaha hi lo play is to play for high, but have some low cards for an emergency low. The low will not get there 40% of the time, so playing solely for low is a MISTAKE heads up. Play for high, and have some low potential just in case. Although the ace is all powerful in Omaha 8, which hand would you prefer in a shallow money allin situation: (a) Ac2c89 or (b) KhKd3h4d. I'll take the KK hand every day of the week, acknowledging the fact that if the ace comes off I am in deep doggy doo. But you know what, if the ace comes off, I'm looking good for the low with my live 34, so it is not all bad. (a) A357 or (b) QQKA. Give me hand (b) all the time. Even if the low gets there, hand will have to hit a straight or 2 pair to scoop me. If no low comes (which happens alot), I'm looking good for a scoop. (a) 2356 or (b) KJJT That's a little tougher, but heads up and allin I think I would prefer hand (b). I value any AAxx hand as worthy of going broke with in a shallow money situation. So how does this fit into the way everyone else is playing? Even at the shallow money stage, most players are playing their typical "go for low" strategy. That means they are playing A2xx A3xx. I will isolate these players with 4 connected big cards and or hands like I mention above in the hope of doubling up when the low doesn't get there. If you have a hand like AKQT and take it against A259, you really are not in a lot of danger of being scooped, but you are a threat to scoop. Usually, the worse case scenario for you is a split. Of course table dynamics factor into this, but I will almost always be aggressive with a big pair with low potential when the money gets shallow, no matter who my opponent is. You have to hit hands in limit tournaments, and you don't win omaha 8 tournaments by playing for half the pot. IMO, those players that play for hi with some low potential in Omaha hi lo shallow money situations have a huge edge over the player that plays for low with some hi potential. Why? The shallow money hands are being played heads up and therefore you do not have the implied odds that make playing for low valuable in deeper money scenarios. _________________ Aiasc If you stink, I'll say you stink. Posted: 17 Jan 2003 21:50 Post subject: Real life example of some of the Omaha 8/b concepts mentioned above. I'm sitting in a 15-30 Omaha 8/b game, and the game is very aggressive and is playing more like a 30-60. There is alot of raising preflop and despite this, usually 4 or more players see the flop. These are the type of players that simply can not fold preflop once they have put money into the pot. The other players probably view me as tight by comparison (which is kind of funny). This is a regular game and everyone knows each other's moves. My modus operandi in this game is to raise preflop with good high hands, usually AAxx. I almost never raise with A2xx hands. THE HAND I'm on the button and I find A 2 6 7 . Now I am not overly thrilled with this hand, but when 5 players limp in, I decide to raise it up on the button. I want to be able to represent AA if an ace flops. PLus, I like my nut flush possibility and emergency heart flush potential as well. Additionally, I figure there are some A3 and A4 hands out there, and I want to make them pay to outflop me. 7 players take the flop for $30. [pot $210]. The flop is sweet for me-- 3 4 9 . I have nut low draw, nut flush draw, a steel wheel draw and a straight draw. There is a bet and a raise. I re-raise on the button. We take the turn 2 handed for $45 [about $300 in pot]. The turn is super sweet for me: a 5 . Now I have the nut low, the nut straight, and the nut flush redraw. My opponent bets into me! I raise, he raises and we get into a raising war. We end up putting 6 bets in each [$180]. The river is a Q I bet and am called. My opponent has 2356 and I scoop a monster pot. This was a case of a bad player overvaluing his weak low and his non-nut straight. He probably figured me for AA with a flush draw and was looking to make me pay to get there (although after I made it 6 bets he did look a little ill). This hand illustrates several important concepts: (1) Change the way you normally play once in a while for deception, especially in your regular game (here I raise the A2 rather than just call); (2) Raise for value both preflop and on the flop, even though all you have at that point is a hand full of potential. At worst it may get you a free card when a hi card hits the turn. At best, you hit your dream card and they bet into you (which is what happened); (3) You must release your hand when it all goes to @#%%. My opponent had to or at least should of) figured he was getting at best a quarter of the pot when I kept raising on the turn. When faced with such confident raising from your opponent, check call is the order of the day. Without redraws you simply can not raise non-nut hands. Omaha 8/b 202. First let me reiterate two important concepts from 101: (1) The key to being a winning player at Omaha 8/b is to SCOOP THE WHOLE POT. If you SCOOP once in a while, and rarely get SCOOPED when you play a pot, you will win a ton of money playing this game. (2) The biggest mistake novice Omaha 8/b players make is CHASING FOR HALF THE POT. Do this and your bankroll will never forgive you. This lesson will focus on typical loose passive low to mid-limit type games, where 4-6 people see the flop and 3 or more go to the river. If you play 30-60 or higher, better to play it like shallow money situations mentioned in previous posts, as most pots will be heads up. Your initial decision to enter the pot or fold is even more critical in this game than it is in holdem or stud because it is VERY easy to make the second best hand. This is a game of the nuts, and you better either have the nuts or be drawing to the nuts if you play this game. When you get a little more advanced perhaps you can draw to the 2nd nuts, but in general that is a recipe for disaster. STARTING HANDS Playing for Low As a new player it is pretty safe to say you should play for low. I will start of with some general concepts and progress to some more specific examples. These are hands you can safely see a flop with: (1) Any A2xx. Now there are times to fold A2, but as a new player you want A2, so Iām gonna let you play it. Do not raise with a naked A2, such as A27Q. You are playing for half the pot, and you want to keep people in. (2) Any A3xx if the ace is suited. You are hoping for the flush, but you can live with going for the low with the second nut hand. Hopefully a 2 hits the board. (3) Any 4 prime low cards A23456. If you have 4 of these bad boys, see a flop. The only questionable combo is 3456, which you may want to fold because it can get you in trouble. Again, you are looking to flop draws to the nuts. (4) Any A with 2 prime low cards. (5) A4 SUCKS, as does a naked 23. These are not hands that scoop unless you catch perfect, so stay away from them. Playing for High (6) Any AAxx if the one of the aces is suited. (7) Any 4 card wrap combo that include a Ten and a picture cards (such as 89TJ) (8) Any A with 3 picture cards. (9) Any pair of Kings double suited. (10) Iām stealing this from some poker writer, but if you have fives through tens, donāt waste your time. Throw away queens and jacks also, even if double suited. As you can see, I donāt give you a lot of starting hands, and almost all of them have an ace in it. If you stay strong pre-flop it will be very difficult for you to get hurt in this game. The FLOP As Iāve said before, the flop is the key street in Omaha 8. It is here you determine whether or not to continue to the river or not. For the most part, if you call on the flop, you are going to the river and probably to the showdown. Playing for Low on the flop Letās say you started with a decent hand of As2s5cTc and see a flop of 3h6hKd What do you think is out there against you if you have 4 or more opponents? Probably the nut flush draw, a 45 for a straight draw, 2 pair and either an A2 or an A4. Maybe even a set. So what do you do? The key card for you here is your 5 as it makes your hand very flexible. You have the nut low draw, but you have backup to the second nut low should an A or 2 hit the turn. This is important. A four is tremendous, as it gives you the nut low with a straight. Because of the flexibility of your low draw, you must raise this on the flop and cap it if re-raised. You want to charge the high draws and the non-nut draws a premium to chase. Also, you want to get enough dead money in there should you get quartered for the low. What if you start with a hand like As3s8hQd. This is a very marginal hand, but I told you to play it so letās play it and see a flop of: 5d7dKs What do you do here? If the pot has not been raised pre-flop you probably should see the turn although it would not be a terrible decision to fold. The fact that you have the backdoor flush draw in spades gives you enough equity to continue on with this hand. Thereās more to hands like this, but it depends on table dynamics and table image, so letās revisit this someday. Letās say you have 2345 no suits. You want that ace to flop, and if it does you are in to the river (unless it comes AKK, then you fold). The danger with this hand is if the ace does not flop. If you flop 2 low cards, however, you have some kind of draw, whether it is 2 pair or a gutshot straight draw or a wrap. If there are no flush draws out there you can get aggressive and represent A2 and really trap a guy going for high if you hit your high draw, and get the whole thing if the Ace comes. Also, you may get the whole thing anyway if someone with A4 is trying to steal the low half. Playing for High If you have AAxx with only one suited, you really are playing for the flush, unless you also have 2,3,4 or 5 to go with it. If you flop top set you are probably up against big draws if you get any action at all. If you do not flop a flush draw you will probably win a small pot or lose a big pot so this is very much a drawing hand. Remember, this is a game of straights and flushes, not sets. How about 89TJ? If you flop low cards you can get away safely. If you flop three cards higher than 7 you are in great shape unless the flush draw is out there. Letās say you see a flop of QsKsAh You can pound this on the flop, but be prepared to let it go if the flush comes or the board pairs. JsTc4h. Pound it on the flop baby and slow down on the turn if you do not improve. How about AsKcJhTd? Again, any flop with 2 cards 9 or higher are going to give you a nice draw, especially if there is no flush draw out there. KsKh3h4s is a playable hand. You want to flop a flush draw or a set or an A2. Remember, if A2 comes you are probably playing for low only, unless you flop the nut flush draw with the A2, which gives you a tremendous shot at scooping. Limit Omaha 8/b Tournaments play very differently from Omaha 8/b cash games. In most Omaha 8/b cash games you can be very discriminating about entering a pot, play your big draws strongly, and basically out-wait your opponents by simply waiting for powerful 2 way hands. That is not the case in an Omaha 8/b tournament. Why, you may ask? Quite simply, in tournaments you get a limited number of playable hands and as the money becomes shallow, you will be forced to play hands you would otherwise never play in Omaha 8/b. [b] Early/MIddle stages of the tournament (deep money) [/b] In the early stages of the tournament, you have two ways of attacking: (1) Play your normal cash game strategy and wait for powerful ćscoopingä hands; or (2) Loosen up and play more hands in hopes of building a large stack early (or bust out early as the case may be). There is nothing wrong with playing your normal cash game strategy early in a tournament. The problem occurs, however, when you do not get any hands. You will simply lose your stack a little bit at a time as you wait for a playable hand. If you ćhang inä there long enough, you are essentially putting all of your tournament eggs into one or two baskets because when the money gets shallow, you will only have enough to play 1 or 2 hands to the river, and if you get scooped, you are out of the tournament. If you watch Omaha 8/b tournaments, the loose/wild player often builds a big stack, only to bleed it away as the blinds get higher later in the tournament. However, a solid player who plays loose in the early, deep money situations can build a big stack and then change gears and tighten up in the middle stage of the tournament. Having a stack enables you to play more aggressively and attack the smaller stacks knowing the smaller stack has to play sub-standard hands as the money gets shallow. [b] Late Stages (shallow money) [/b] [quote="LouKrieger"] The late stages of Omaha/8 tourneys often begin looking like games of Omaha high-only, with high hands being played aggressively and low draws being folded with regularity. Exactly Lou. As the money gets shallow more hands are played heads up. The big stacks will relentlessly attack the blinds of the smaller stacks. Often, the hand will be played heads up between the initial aggressor and one or both of the blinds. In that situation, you are better off playing for high, rather than your normal ćplay for lowä strategy. Strong hi hands such as big pairs, big wraps (AKQT with suits) etc. Big high hands with some low potential (AKK5)(A4QJ suited) etc. go way up in value when the money is shallow and the hands are played heads up. Iāve posted on Omaha 8/b shallow money play before, so I will simply paste it here. Shallow Money Play First of all, when the money gets shallow you likely will come in for a raise preflop and the hand will usually be contested heads up. The key to heads up Omaha hi lo play is to play for high, but have some low cards for an emergency low. The low will not get there 40% of the time, so playing solely for low is a MISTAKE heads up. Play for high, and have some low potential just in case. Although the ace is all powerful in Omaha 8, which hand would you prefer in a shallow money allin situation: (a) Ac2c89 or (b) KhKd3h4d. I'll take the KK hand every day of the week, acknowledging the fact that if the ace comes off I am in deep doggy doo. But you know what, if the ace comes off, I'm looking good for the low with my live 34, so it is not all bad. (a) A357 or (b) QQKA. Give me hand (b) all the time. Even if the low gets there, hand will have to hit a straight or 2 pair to scoop me. If no low comes (which happens alot), I'm looking good for a scoop. (a) 2356 or (b) KJJT That's a little tougher, but heads up and allin I think I would prefer hand (b). I value any AAxx hand as worthy of going broke with in a shallow money situation. So how does this fit into the way everyone else is playing? Even at the shallow money stage, most players are playing their typical "go for low" strategy. That means they are playing A2xx A3xx. I will isolate these players with 4 connected big cards and or hands like I mention above in the hope of doubling up when the low doesn't get there. If you have a hand like AKQT and take it against A259, you really are not in a lot of danger of being scooped, but you are a threat to scoop. Usually, the worse case scenario for you is a split. Of course table dynamics factor into this, but I will almost always be aggressive with a big pair with low potential when the money gets shallow, no matter who my opponent is. You have to hit hands in limit tournaments, and you don't win omaha 8 tournaments by playing for half the pot. IMO, those players that play for hi with some low potential in Omaha hi lo shallow money situations have a huge edge over the player that plays for low with some hi potential. Why? The shallow money hands are being played heads up and therefore you do not have the implied odds that make playing for low valuable in deeper money scenarios For more visit http://poker.trynot.net/ _________________________________________________________________ Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com